Wednesday, June 10, 2009

My first post...

Over at www.playdota.com. I'm only reposting it because I guess it answers some misconceptions about what I do and also because I want feedback on the next course of action, and because I'm too lazy to reword and retype it here. =P

does 6.60 have ai edition?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chip'ndale
"i mean, afaik he asked for ice's permission before starting this project, is not like he felt doing this free lance."

0/2 friend, sorry. Didn't ask for permission to do this and I did feel like doing this freelance when I first started, and continue to do so. I receive no official support except that IceFrog has generously allowed me to post my work and put the map on getdota.com. I was surprised when it first appeared; that was done without my knowledge and I wasn't told until forum members told me you could download my map on getdota.com =P

Aside from that, the maps I generate are technically "unofficial". I have no access to deobfuscated source, so one could view the AI as basically a giant hack. I'm not part of his staff, have no regular communications with the team, and generally do my own thing. Hell, I'm a "Junior Member" on this now-official forum. What does THAT tell you, hm? =P

So...yeah, if you want updates, you'll have to check my blog. =P Unless something changes drastically (which it doesn't look to, since it seems like AI is generally a low priority on the grand scheme of things), I'm not obligated to update on any other medium, and it's going to stay that way.

And to me, this works out better. IceFrog has enough issues to worry about without trying to attach an "official" AI to the overall map, which would only really be used for training purposes, and I don't have enough time to try to update and maintain this deprecated code to a quality that's suitable for release. While I would love to have access to deobfuscated source to make my life easier, I don't technically need it (yet).

That said, hopefully you'll understand why the AI releases are generally sporadic and don't coincide too terribly much with the official releases. Perhaps in the future when I have the infrastructure in place we can consider doing coordinated releases (though it'd be a lot of work on my part and ultimately up to IceFrog to decide whether or not he trusts me enough to play with prerelease source), but if that is to be the case it wouldn't come into fruition for a long, long time.

Anyway, about AI for 6.60, since I know that's what everyone wants to know about...

My original plan was to finish isolating the original script, update and rewrite it, and then release on whatever version would been out by then (I'm about 110% sure that it will be newer than 6.60 at that point). However, if it seems like demand is high enough and people are willing to play against AI bots that don't make use of the new features or abilities (Razor's AI, for example, will be more or less completely broken), then I can continue to back-port features, at least for the purpose of trying new items and builds on something.

Problem is, this back-porting will take a long, long time (given the amount of changes, I'd say at least two months), time that I can spend furthering development on the script itself, so it's a significant fork in the road.

Pretty much the choices are:
1. Back-port features, get some bots that don't work all that well, can have training with new features in ~two months
2. Update AI, get bots that (hopefully) work with all new features, can have training with new features in ~long time
3. Wait for somebody else to write an AI map (I think Harreke was working on one), can have training in ~who knows

Any preferences? =P

Yay block of text. I wonder who will actually bother to read it all.

Well, now that I've written this all out, might as copy-paste it to the blog, haha. =P

28 comments:

Shin.Vodk4 said...

There will be a lot of pro and con comments ;p

some want ported version and the other want stable version.

well, I just glad to see you still active in this blog and dota forum ;p
been a long time since your last post.

Steven said...

Get the proper version, we can wait. I know you don't want to work on the port anyway.

Sascha said...

i'd say update the ai, because if it takes two months to back-port u will just be outdated again and u can start porting again^^

BMP fan said...

Yeah option 2 is my vote.

ShotokanTuning said...

Dear BMP,

Create your own AI using as much as you can from the existing AI, back-porting gets harder and becomes less useful with each update. The real fans are willing to wait, 6.60 took its time to do it well, so can you.

Don't be afraid to drop alpha, beta, etc. versions every once in a while, even if they are buggy. We're happy to be included in the process and test your work as you come along the bumps in the road.

I'll say it again, thanks for all the nice maps you've made.

Greetings,
ST

Hurricane Frash said...

Three Words:

Take Your Time!

hercule said...

I read it all.
STOP DOING IT!

Icefrog should help you. If not by giving the code ( yea, that`s a little too much ) but at least help you somehow. He never answers emails or anything. So, you should probably stop doing it. Or buy a getdotaai.com domain and post them there.

anhar08 said...

OK. I will always open your site to check the 6.60 ai map. Is there supertower mode in that map???

danqxx said...

Hey BMP,
Is it possible to get on board with helping to develop the AI maps?

Kostas said...

Hey !! Why don't we make a poll on playdota , in order Icefrog help BMP ?

One other thing : BMP , I really appreciate the thing you do, it helped me and entertained me a lot.. But making or improving a TEAM game I thing you must be (or have) a team...

yusufx said...

would prefer an actual good, working version of the ai compared to broken heroes...

nway gj for all d maps uve done b4.. n hope u can continue w it! n mbe get some help :)

Overflow said...

I'm gonna suggest option 2 as well. Option 1 is pointless, the map will start becoming unsuitable for any purpose with the amount of remade heroes that won't have an effective AI. =/

I don't mind how long it takes at all, take your time mate. :)

Javier said...

OMG.. plz dont degrade yourself, ok you're not part of his staff but you have many fans and tons of ppl always wait your relases... (Demigod) take your time. You're great in what you do (you should start teaching how to do it and build a "team" to help you and make it easy).
We all appreciate your work.
PD: I like a lot the idea of [Kostas].

bastard said...

Hey I read the whole thing.

Go for a properly updated AI, don't just port it.

The people who appreciate what you do appreciate the effort in writing a new AI script, and will be far more appreciative than people who're just hankering for port (after which they'll whine about how so many things don't work anyway).

But I agree that you could (I'm not going to say should, because you've earned the right to work however you want) source around for people to help you. Maybe they could do a port and you could focus on the script.

Sean said...

I really appreciate the work you are doing.

MaktorTheSentinel said...

OPTION 2!

override182 said...

2nd option FTW.. way to go BMP~

Podge said...

Hey Man,
just wanted to say thanks for all the hard work. Myself and my friends make use of the ai maps a lot, as we're not really up for online competitive play, and can't always get enough people together for 2 good teams. Anyway, looking forward to when 6.60 is done, but take your time and publish it as is merited. Would rather have it working fully than some bugged back port. Do feel free to drop some Alpha's/Beta's though; I'm sure we could all handle some bug testing :-)

rajesh said...

Number 2 dude!!
by the way,thanks for all the great maps you've come up with, you're a credit to the dota community if i've ever seen one!
keep up the awesome work!

rajesh said...

Number 2 dude!
by the way, thanks for all the awesome maps you've developed, you're a true credit to the dota community if I've ever seen one!!
Keep up the awesome work!

Robert said...

You 're doing great thing Sir.Wait for dota "6.60z" and improve it :)

Abdull Khair Kamaruddin said...

go for Option 2.keep up the good work.take your time.No need to rush.

meme said...

Option 2 is obviously the best, but whatever you do take your time for it and don't do what you don't want to do. You'll have my support (it's not much but, ah well...) no matter what ya do.

Frink said...

Please don't give up on making AI updates BMP. You are great!!! My friends and I love your AI maps, because we can actually enjoy intense games without having to go online and play with droppers.

I would go with number 2. If you make your own AI script, then you could easily update it since you wrote it. Also maybe Icefrog would pull this stick out and let you have what you need such as scripts and stuff to make the AI faster, easier, and better. You are the man. Please take your time, people will still be playing WC3 for a long time just like Starcraft.

Arky said...

Do it your way man... You have done an awesome job so far... Most of us just don't care about how long does it takes, as long as we get a BuffMePlz quality AI map... REALLY
Do it like you stated one the first place... Decode those scripts and work on that awesome AI you said... :)
I'm gonna more happy playing against that than just some ported ai =P =)

-Signed
A happy DoTA Playah

zerotonin said...

I vote for 2. It's less work for you in the long run, and players benefit too from having stronger opponents.

IcY said...

i read it all... =p

Baoz said...

I dont understand why porting takes so long.

Anyway, take your time and you can ask the community for help. :)

I need a 6.60/6.61 AI+, I cant play Garena/BNet using my hostel's internet connection T,T